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What’s Next, Burning Leonardo Da Vinci Paintings?

cherokee-sprint

Cherokee is an open source Web-Server and quite popular as a matter of fact.

HomePage: http://cherokee-project.com/

GitHub: https://github.com/cherokee

cherokee-logo

When installing Cherokee in Fedora, you also install the above image, which is Cherokee logo. This image is considered by Fedorians as “offensive, discriminatory, or derogator”, and it doesn’t complies with the Fedora Packaging Guidelines. Therefore the package (Cherokee) will be removed as long as they don’t change logo.

cherokee-server

Running Cherokee WebServer

To be honest I didn’t know much about the History of Cherokee Tribe, the Cherokee Nation and the American Mascot Controversy till now. Additionally, I didn’t read every comment in the corresponding bug reports to have a better opinion about this issue, simply because I don’t care about these things in such a way.

Richard Fontana in bug report #681339 (2011) says:

The package cherokee contains certain image files that I believe violate Fedora guidelines for acceptable content.

According to:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#CodeVsContent
“Content should not be offensive, discriminatory, or derogatory. If you’re not sure if a piece of content is one of these things, it probably is.”

Such image files as /var/www/cherokee/images/cherokee-logo.png and any other image files incorporating the Cherokee project logo are, in my view, clearly “offensive, discriminatory, or derogatory”. They should be replaced with images that comply with Fedora content guidelines.

Andrew Barilla continues:

Sometimes images are used which are considered caricatures of a people which stereotype them which is where the concern comes from.

My concern with this issue is that it appears to be made without input from the party involved and I consider making a decision on behalf of a people to be as racist as the original content.

My wife is Osage and step-daughter also has Cherokee blood from her father so I sent a message to the Cherokee nation (http://www.cherokee.org/) to ask for their input on this.

If someone is concerned that other tribes may find this offensive than I believe the closet thing that American Indians have to a single organization we could go to would be the American Indian Movement (http://www.aimovement.org/).

According to FESCo Minutes logs

and FESCo Ticket 1230

From the 2014-03-05 FESCo meeting:

AGREED: FESCo decision reiterated. Package will be retired Monday (March 10) if not fixed. (+:7,-:0,0:0) (notting, 18:54:42)


Burn Leonardo Da Vinci Paintings!

Because I totally agree with the removal of Cherokee about the logo thing, I also have some further proposals to the Fedora Team.

  • Destroy Leonardo Da Vinci paintings because they are considered sexist, and I am not even referring to religious issues.
  • Expel all developers that have said offensive things to others
  • Remove all applications like GNOME Videos or Games that include content that is considered offensive (and actually is!) in many countries and people

I am trying to make a point through joking, because I really can’t be serious on these things. My point is that you can’t blame the gun, but the man who is holding it. You can’t blame the Logo, but the people who created it and the people who are using it.

My personal opinion, is if you are calling something “racist” you’re also calling all the people behind it “racist”. I would expect “some” Fedorians to be more cautious, and not connect a project with politics and history. Unfortunately anti-racism campaigns and communities of any kind, is what preserve and keep the racism alive.

There isn’t any kind of racism, other than the economical racism. And that was always the case.

Even IF the decision is right, the reasoning is wrong. We can find hundreds of such reasons to request from people to change names and logos. As “Beefy Miracle” might be offensive to India, even Fedora Hat has a history behind it :)


 
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  • Mark

    Oh my…. That’s insane. Seems nothing can be created anymore, without someone being offended. How funny that my parents (and grandparents) had (even under communistic regime) higher freedom of speech, than I do right now.

    Is the whole world turning into a privileged whining baby, who’s offended by absolutely everything? Ohh God, what a sad times that we’re living in…

  • darklight_

    Let’s sue nintendo because mario makes italians look like idiots then!

    What
    a bunch of fools, only americans are so touchy on anything that
    concerns race, guess what not everything is a racial stereotype or is
    trying to be offensive.

    Way too much time on their hands, way too much ignorance, way too many lawyers.

  • jon_downfromthetrees

    >>”…if you are calling something ‘racist’ you’re also calling all the people behind it ‘racist’…”

    Well, yes, and nothing wrong with that. Racism needs to be called out.

    More precisely, what you are doing is saying an action by someone is racist and offensive. That person may have acted in naive ignorance.

    That said, here in the U.S, it’s rather unlikely that someone would be honestly unaware of the fact that this kind of portrayal of native Americans is broadly considered offensive. (That doesn’t preclude the possibility that someone might deliberately feign ignorance in order to be offensive.)

    Legal, and other action, in this area is certainly not unknown.

    In addition, I wonder if anyone has explored the possibility — I don’t know if it exists — that the Cherokee tribe owns the rights to the use of the “Cherokee” name.

    • alex285

      > Well, yes, and nothing wrong with that. Racism needs to be called out.
      I think you need to explore what the word racism means. racism born, by a pretence that the white men, are superior to other races, so they can take advantage of them.

      it is pretty much the same-way with different pretences that US government, Europe (and others ofc), use to invade on foreign countries.

      there is no racism, just pretences, for economical benefits. and here that’s not the case.

      in a simple form, racists are just stupid people, most of times no-educated and poor. that’s another issue.

      • jon_downfromthetrees

        No, racism is an unfortunate part of human nature, not a specific attribute of white people. It is, in essence, attributing characteristics to an individual because of their inclusion in a group that shares genetic and ethnic traits. Like greed, lust, gluttony, etc., it affects all of us and we can succumb to it if we are weak and unreasoning.

        The images in question are in a tradition of the stereotyped portrayals of native Americans common for most of American history. They are, in fact, widely considered racist. No argument drawn from semantics can change that.

        • alex285

          > No, racism is an unfortunate part of human nature,
          this is the part I disagree. None is born racist. Society do people racists, and by society I mean the “few”. Racism, patriotism, religion, is all made by the “few” to take advantage on the “more”. Anti-racism campaigns just make things worse. Just let law & justice work. In the very end of the day, as I said, we have the right to express free as long as we don’t harm anyone.

          Actually, there is more racism than ever these days (at least in Europe), and racism of course is connected with Neo-Nazism and extreme-right ideology, things that are born in poverty.

          • alex285

            I want to say, what’s Fedora business on that? And by the way, in this specific Cherokee matter, it just doesn’t make sense.

          • jon_downfromthetrees

            I didn’t say anyone is born racist.

            We all like to eat. We all like to possess things. We all fear the different and unknown.

            Racism is to fear of the different and unknown as gluttony is to enjoying food, and as greed is to enjoying possessing material things.

            Obviously, that’s a great oversimplification. But, as I see it, we are all as subsceptible to turning to racism to cope with our fears as we are to become gluttonous or greedy. Most of us learn when we are young that these things are wrong. Most of us learn not to eat until we become ill. Most of us learn that just taking what we want from other people is wrong. Most of us learn that making decisions about we treat people based on their genetics is wrong.

            But, some people don’t learn these things are wrong. They become gluttons, or thieves, or racists.

            On the specific issue of that Cherokee artwork: It isn’t a matter of Fedora/RedHat trying to fight racism. It’s a matter of Fedora/RedHat removing a possibility of being sued, or, at least, being the target of bad PR.

          • alex285

            >It’s a matter of Fedora/RedHat removing a possibility of being sued, or, at least, being the target of bad PR.

            True, but at this matter I think they are wrong. Not even Cherokee guys aren’t complaining. Without knowing that, I guess this software has been created from someone of the tribe.

  • Michael E

    > if you are calling something “racist” you’re also calling all the people behind it “racist”.

    No. This inference is toxic to constructive discourse on racial issues. If we cannot critique the racial images in something without that critique implying a personal attack, it is much harder to overcome gut-level opposition and help people see that the thing they created is offensive. It eliminates the ability to assume good faith: that the creator in question genuinely did not know that the logo, advertisement, or whatever would be offensive to the people that it stereotypes, and would gladly modify it or refrain from such stereotypes in the future.

    Anil Dash discusses this much better than I can: http://dashes.com/anil/2012/05/fixing-popchips.html

    And the video he recommends is also excellent: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc

    • alex285

      the cherokee devs are aware of this, and they didn’t change their logo. and of course they knew about cherokee tribe when they created the logo at first place. so what now?

      freedom of expression is not that free in fedora community in general.

  • Osqui

    Racism is not letting enter iranian or cuban people in your community