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	<title>Comments on: From the 200 extensions to the new 200 Gnome Apps!</title>
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	<link>http://worldofgnome.org/from-the-200-extensions-to-the-new-200-gnome-apps/</link>
	<description>Just another GNOME blog</description>
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		<title>By: ScionicSpectre</title>
		<link>http://worldofgnome.org/from-the-200-extensions-to-the-new-200-gnome-apps/#comment-1866</link>
		<dc:creator>ScionicSpectre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2012 07:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://worldofgnome.org/?p=6543#comment-1866</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is amusing to me how we have such amazing technology, but it&#039;s true that until recently the resources to help developers actually interact with this technology has been so severely lacking. I think Qt has done a pretty good job of getting people involved with their toolkit- of course, the relationship with Qt and KDE is insanely different from GTK and GNOME. GTK is largely a product of GNOME these days, while KDE has traditionally been a &#039;consumer&#039; of Qt.


Still, GNOME 3.0 itself was a huge achievement. I almost feel guilty to be asking even more of it now, but to see how much we can do with the resources we have is very encouraging. Some of it will be rough, but we have the capacity to really push it to the limit. I will be very happy to see a new flux of applications made based on GNOME 3&#039;s emerging HIG, especially if it inspires people to come up with creative ideas for applications that have been ignored in the past due to the WIMP-focused era of GNOME 2.


I think we&#039;re really going to pick up some steam. As the vision of GNOME is more fully realized, and we get these new applications, I think people will begin to realize it was the right direction to go. I&#039;m sure Ubuntu users won&#039;t be able to resist some of the upcoming goodies, even if they don&#039;t think they agree with the design ethos now.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is amusing to me how we have such amazing technology, but it&#8217;s true that until recently the resources to help developers actually interact with this technology has been so severely lacking. I think Qt has done a pretty good job of getting people involved with their toolkit- of course, the relationship with Qt and KDE is insanely different from GTK and GNOME. GTK is largely a product of GNOME these days, while KDE has traditionally been a &#8216;consumer&#8217; of Qt.</p>
<p>Still, GNOME 3.0 itself was a huge achievement. I almost feel guilty to be asking even more of it now, but to see how much we can do with the resources we have is very encouraging. Some of it will be rough, but we have the capacity to really push it to the limit. I will be very happy to see a new flux of applications made based on GNOME 3&#8242;s emerging HIG, especially if it inspires people to come up with creative ideas for applications that have been ignored in the past due to the WIMP-focused era of GNOME 2.</p>
<p>I think we&#8217;re really going to pick up some steam. As the vision of GNOME is more fully realized, and we get these new applications, I think people will begin to realize it was the right direction to go. I&#8217;m sure Ubuntu users won&#8217;t be able to resist some of the upcoming goodies, even if they don&#8217;t think they agree with the design ethos now.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Links 16/8/2012: Calligra 2.5, LibreOffice 3.5.6 Released &#124; Techrights</title>
		<link>http://worldofgnome.org/from-the-200-extensions-to-the-new-200-gnome-apps/#comment-1851</link>
		<dc:creator>Links 16/8/2012: Calligra 2.5, LibreOffice 3.5.6 Released &#124; Techrights</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 18:27:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://worldofgnome.org/?p=6543#comment-1851</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] From the 200 extensions to the new 200 Gnome Apps! What is in common with the golden winner of 100 &amp; 200m in 2012 (and 2008!) Olympic Games and Gnome3? They are both born to run fast and break records! [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] From the 200 extensions to the new 200 Gnome Apps! What is in common with the golden winner of 100 &amp; 200m in 2012 (and 2008!) Olympic Games and Gnome3? They are both born to run fast and break records! [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Philip Witte</title>
		<link>http://worldofgnome.org/from-the-200-extensions-to-the-new-200-gnome-apps/#comment-1846</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Witte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 17:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://worldofgnome.org/?p=6543#comment-1846</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Those Mono benchmarks are probably flawed, in that they&#039;re testing from start to finish. Mono always has a bit more to start up because of it&#039;s heavy VM and JIT, while C applications (which Vala is) do not. I did a few simple math tests (vectors and matrices) ~6-8 months ago between D, C/C++, Mono, and Vala and Vala was the slowest. My tests didn&#039;t compare the startup costs, only performance of &quot;runtime&quot; code (code that would be executing &quot;in game&quot; for example). It&#039;s possible that I wasn&#039;t compiling with all the appropriate flags, though I did my research well there, so I doubt it had anything to do with that.


That said, my recent tests between D, C/C++ and Mono have shown that Mono is significantly slower than native languages. Also, those benchmarks are interesting since Vala seems to perform identically to C. So it looks like I need to do more tests with Vala, just to be sure.

Concerning memory, I think GC is better all around. Modern GC&#039;s are incremental, not &quot;stop the world&quot;, and don&#039;t suffer from random stutters unless you&#039;re pushing memory to the brink in which case you&#039;ll have memory issues regardless. Plus you have easy ways to mark blocks as non-collected for things like Memory Pools where you&#039;re managing everything yourself anyways. The big performance problem with ref-counting is you have to count each reference always, whereas in GC you can scan incrementally and stop when a time threshold is met. Since most applications usually aren&#039;t allocating/deallocating memory every cycle the GC has more than enough time to collect at it&#039;s own pace, instead of slowing down everything along the way. With the big added benefit to the programmer of not having to worry about memory cycles at all.


You also get things like memory compression with GC, where I don&#039;t think that exists in Ref Counted systems (granted, I don&#039;t know if that&#039;s a design or implementation issue). Also, the lazy-deallocation of GC is usually a good thing (for performance and memory recycling), while in Ref Counting you have to manually craft that, or pay for deallocation at the end of each scope.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those Mono benchmarks are probably flawed, in that they&#8217;re testing from start to finish. Mono always has a bit more to start up because of it&#8217;s heavy VM and JIT, while C applications (which Vala is) do not. I did a few simple math tests (vectors and matrices) ~6-8 months ago between D, C/C++, Mono, and Vala and Vala was the slowest. My tests didn&#8217;t compare the startup costs, only performance of &#8220;runtime&#8221; code (code that would be executing &#8220;in game&#8221; for example). It&#8217;s possible that I wasn&#8217;t compiling with all the appropriate flags, though I did my research well there, so I doubt it had anything to do with that.</p>
<p>That said, my recent tests between D, C/C++ and Mono have shown that Mono is significantly slower than native languages. Also, those benchmarks are interesting since Vala seems to perform identically to C. So it looks like I need to do more tests with Vala, just to be sure.</p>
<p>Concerning memory, I think GC is better all around. Modern GC&#8217;s are incremental, not &#8220;stop the world&#8221;, and don&#8217;t suffer from random stutters unless you&#8217;re pushing memory to the brink in which case you&#8217;ll have memory issues regardless. Plus you have easy ways to mark blocks as non-collected for things like Memory Pools where you&#8217;re managing everything yourself anyways. The big performance problem with ref-counting is you have to count each reference always, whereas in GC you can scan incrementally and stop when a time threshold is met. Since most applications usually aren&#8217;t allocating/deallocating memory every cycle the GC has more than enough time to collect at it&#8217;s own pace, instead of slowing down everything along the way. With the big added benefit to the programmer of not having to worry about memory cycles at all.</p>
<p>You also get things like memory compression with GC, where I don&#8217;t think that exists in Ref Counted systems (granted, I don&#8217;t know if that&#8217;s a design or implementation issue). Also, the lazy-deallocation of GC is usually a good thing (for performance and memory recycling), while in Ref Counting you have to manually craft that, or pay for deallocation at the end of each scope.</p>
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		<title>By: liam</title>
		<link>http://worldofgnome.org/from-the-200-extensions-to-the-new-200-gnome-apps/#comment-1834</link>
		<dc:creator>liam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 08:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://worldofgnome.org/?p=6543#comment-1834</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[http://jpaflacerda.wordpress.com/2011/11/08/vala-benchmarking/
Vala seems to be pretty close in speed to C. For short tests, mono, as expected, is the slowest.
The ref count GC is very fast (since even sophisticated GC techniques like Java uses still lead to unpredictable stutters ). Of course, you can end up with unreachable allocations, but it doesn&#039;t seem to be a huge problem. My guess is that the most common cause of leaks are cyclic references and for those Vala expects the developer to recognize them as such and mark them as weak refs. As you say, it can be tricky.
Vala really seems designed for rapid development without suffering from unacceptable performance, so it&#039;s not always going to be the best choice, but the lack of overloading support is strange (the reason seems suspect, IMHO).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://jpaflacerda.wordpress.com/2011/11/08/vala-benchmarking/" rel="nofollow">http://jpaflacerda.wordpress.com/2011/11/08/vala-benchmarking/</a><br />
Vala seems to be pretty close in speed to C. For short tests, mono, as expected, is the slowest.<br />
The ref count GC is very fast (since even sophisticated GC techniques like Java uses still lead to unpredictable stutters ). Of course, you can end up with unreachable allocations, but it doesn&#8217;t seem to be a huge problem. My guess is that the most common cause of leaks are cyclic references and for those Vala expects the developer to recognize them as such and mark them as weak refs. As you say, it can be tricky.<br />
Vala really seems designed for rapid development without suffering from unacceptable performance, so it&#8217;s not always going to be the best choice, but the lack of overloading support is strange (the reason seems suspect, IMHO).</p>
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		<title>By: Philip Witte</title>
		<link>http://worldofgnome.org/from-the-200-extensions-to-the-new-200-gnome-apps/#comment-1807</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Witte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2012 10:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://worldofgnome.org/?p=6543#comment-1807</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No, Vala in it&#039;s current state is not as fast as C/C++, D, or even Mono C#, though I&#039;m sure that will improve in the future.


Beyond that however, Vala suffers from a few very important design mistakes:


First, it&#039;s ref-counted not garbage collected. This is arguably slower and less stable, plus very easy to introduce circular references which will prevent memory from being collected all together. Honestly, I would probably rather manually manage memory than have to analyse every reference for those tricky-to-find ref loops.


Second, there&#039;s no overloads or operators in Vala, which is a big deal when creating and using math libraries. If you write game code, or anything math oriented really, this is serious issue.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, Vala in it&#8217;s current state is not as fast as C/C++, D, or even Mono C#, though I&#8217;m sure that will improve in the future.</p>
<p>Beyond that however, Vala suffers from a few very important design mistakes:</p>
<p>First, it&#8217;s ref-counted not garbage collected. This is arguably slower and less stable, plus very easy to introduce circular references which will prevent memory from being collected all together. Honestly, I would probably rather manually manage memory than have to analyse every reference for those tricky-to-find ref loops.</p>
<p>Second, there&#8217;s no overloads or operators in Vala, which is a big deal when creating and using math libraries. If you write game code, or anything math oriented really, this is serious issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip Witte</title>
		<link>http://worldofgnome.org/from-the-200-extensions-to-the-new-200-gnome-apps/#comment-1806</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Witte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2012 10:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://worldofgnome.org/?p=6543#comment-1806</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[MonoDevelop + Mono-D is actually quite good at project management, refactoring, and code-completion (though it&#039;s not done yet). So the IDE support is improving a lot. One of the main reasons D&#039;s been slow with tooling support is in part because of early design choices which are being fixed, and in part because it&#039;s meta programming is so powerful you need to perform a huge deal more static analysis on the code to understand what variables exist and what types they are. C++ has very poor code-completion support in the majority of IDEs, even after so long, because it has similar ability.


Again, MonoD is tackling these issues, and there&#039;s a joint effort to standardize the parser and make that available to dev tools, but yes, it&#039;s not quite there yet. Luckily though, D is now very stable and could be used to write some high-end commercial apps.


Honestly though, I&#039;ve been spoiled by the convenience of languages like C#, but I&#039;m not willing to sacrifice performance in some areas (nor do I think you should have to choose between the two). So really, only D offers the kind of productivity features (within the language) _and_ the performance of C/C++. I can&#039;t really think of another option at this point.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MonoDevelop + Mono-D is actually quite good at project management, refactoring, and code-completion (though it&#8217;s not done yet). So the IDE support is improving a lot. One of the main reasons D&#8217;s been slow with tooling support is in part because of early design choices which are being fixed, and in part because it&#8217;s meta programming is so powerful you need to perform a huge deal more static analysis on the code to understand what variables exist and what types they are. C++ has very poor code-completion support in the majority of IDEs, even after so long, because it has similar ability.</p>
<p>Again, MonoD is tackling these issues, and there&#8217;s a joint effort to standardize the parser and make that available to dev tools, but yes, it&#8217;s not quite there yet. Luckily though, D is now very stable and could be used to write some high-end commercial apps.</p>
<p>Honestly though, I&#8217;ve been spoiled by the convenience of languages like C#, but I&#8217;m not willing to sacrifice performance in some areas (nor do I think you should have to choose between the two). So really, only D offers the kind of productivity features (within the language) _and_ the performance of C/C++. I can&#8217;t really think of another option at this point.</p>
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		<title>By: Arron Washington</title>
		<link>http://worldofgnome.org/from-the-200-extensions-to-the-new-200-gnome-apps/#comment-1792</link>
		<dc:creator>Arron Washington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 20:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://worldofgnome.org/?p=6543#comment-1792</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[D, the language whose homepage links to a non-existing domain when you click on &quot;Editors&quot; or &quot;More Tools.&quot;


Trolling aside, I tinkered with D in the past, and its a very nice language -- especially after they finally wrangled the whole Phobos / Tango deal --- but it&#039;s still and has always lacked tooling support. One of the necessary trade-offs for me to deal with a staticly typed language (I normally do Python or Ruby) is robust tooling: an IDE with an integrated debugger, code completion (this IS a static language, after all), and the rest of the typical goodies are pretty much required. D still doesn&#039;t have those, but hell, Ceylon, Kotlin, Dart -- even Phantom if you wanna go there -- have robust IDE support even though they&#039;re all much younger. It really makes you question D and its value proposition when everything else seems to be zipping past it so quickly in terms of tooling support.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>D, the language whose homepage links to a non-existing domain when you click on &#8220;Editors&#8221; or &#8220;More Tools.&#8221;</p>
<p>Trolling aside, I tinkered with D in the past, and its a very nice language &#8212; especially after they finally wrangled the whole Phobos / Tango deal &#8212; but it&#8217;s still and has always lacked tooling support. One of the necessary trade-offs for me to deal with a staticly typed language (I normally do Python or Ruby) is robust tooling: an IDE with an integrated debugger, code completion (this IS a static language, after all), and the rest of the typical goodies are pretty much required. D still doesn&#8217;t have those, but hell, Ceylon, Kotlin, Dart &#8212; even Phantom if you wanna go there &#8212; have robust IDE support even though they&#8217;re all much younger. It really makes you question D and its value proposition when everything else seems to be zipping past it so quickly in terms of tooling support.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: liam</title>
		<link>http://worldofgnome.org/from-the-200-extensions-to-the-new-200-gnome-apps/#comment-1759</link>
		<dc:creator>liam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 06:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://worldofgnome.org/?p=6543#comment-1759</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, gnome has Vala. That seems modeled on a earlier version of c#, and it is quite fast.
If you want D write the xml bridge to gobject and with introspection you get your bindings.
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, gnome has Vala. That seems modeled on a earlier version of c#, and it is quite fast.<br />
If you want D write the xml bridge to gobject and with introspection you get your bindings.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: liam</title>
		<link>http://worldofgnome.org/from-the-200-extensions-to-the-new-200-gnome-apps/#comment-1758</link>
		<dc:creator>liam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 06:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://worldofgnome.org/?p=6543#comment-1758</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Regarding applications, ostree seems to be part of the attempt to help with this.
From my research ostree looks to be an umbrella project for linux DE&#039;s. It is supposed to include a continuous integration service that spits out installable binaries for gnome. This encompasses unit testing so there are no regressions (though to reach the goal of being regression fre  a few other pieces are needed like replacing the package system with something that is more aware of the relationships between code units, a swell as snapshotting, which seems to be tied to btrfs), a new way of handling installs (no more packages, now we get bundle, like osx, and no more package manager, since packages are now gone---don&#039;t freak, the metadata of packages will be replaced with something supposedly much better), and,.most important of all, a way to run a multiroot system (allows for parallel installs). This last bit looks to be useful for development since you could keep one root up to date with the latest Gnome builds and be able to seemlessly, and somehow safely, share user data across roots. 
This is a huge part of Gnome OS.
I&#039;ll be going to a talk Colin is giving on Wed about ostree. Hopefully he can fill in some details for me.
BTW, despite what Gnome has been saying, Gnome certainly looks to be going in the direction of a distro. They certainly seem to be thinking about it in that way to me.
I&#039;d also add one more thing to the list above: the alienation of long time gnome CONTRIBUTORS with regards to the direction of gnome. Simply read some of the mailing lists over the last two months in particular (see gnome desktop, nautilus, gtk, at a minimum, and of course the gnome shell ml). Frankly, one of the most disturbing things is the lack of transparency with regards to design decisions. Yes, you can see mockups, but you can&#039;t read the thoughts that went into their making. Someone suggested that major Gnome design decisions (like the new nautilus... btw, the fud that was apparently used as justification for the redesign is truly disturbing;quite simply, this should NEVER happen)  be introduced in a major forum (like the gnoke desktop ml) but the idea was shot down by Allan Day (and possibly others). Design should be an open process and involve all stakeholders, not something that is done on an unrecorded irc channel.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding applications, ostree seems to be part of the attempt to help with this.<br />
From my research ostree looks to be an umbrella project for linux DE&#8217;s. It is supposed to include a continuous integration service that spits out installable binaries for gnome. This encompasses unit testing so there are no regressions (though to reach the goal of being regression fre  a few other pieces are needed like replacing the package system with something that is more aware of the relationships between code units, a swell as snapshotting, which seems to be tied to btrfs), a new way of handling installs (no more packages, now we get bundle, like osx, and no more package manager, since packages are now gone&#8212;don&#8217;t freak, the metadata of packages will be replaced with something supposedly much better), and,.most important of all, a way to run a multiroot system (allows for parallel installs). This last bit looks to be useful for development since you could keep one root up to date with the latest Gnome builds and be able to seemlessly, and somehow safely, share user data across roots.<br />
This is a huge part of Gnome OS.<br />
I&#8217;ll be going to a talk Colin is giving on Wed about ostree. Hopefully he can fill in some details for me.<br />
BTW, despite what Gnome has been saying, Gnome certainly looks to be going in the direction of a distro. They certainly seem to be thinking about it in that way to me.<br />
I&#8217;d also add one more thing to the list above: the alienation of long time gnome CONTRIBUTORS with regards to the direction of gnome. Simply read some of the mailing lists over the last two months in particular (see gnome desktop, nautilus, gtk, at a minimum, and of course the gnome shell ml). Frankly, one of the most disturbing things is the lack of transparency with regards to design decisions. Yes, you can see mockups, but you can&#8217;t read the thoughts that went into their making. Someone suggested that major Gnome design decisions (like the new nautilus&#8230; btw, the fud that was apparently used as justification for the redesign is truly disturbing;quite simply, this should NEVER happen)  be introduced in a major forum (like the gnoke desktop ml) but the idea was shot down by Allan Day (and possibly others). Design should be an open process and involve all stakeholders, not something that is done on an unrecorded irc channel.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip Witte</title>
		<link>http://worldofgnome.org/from-the-200-extensions-to-the-new-200-gnome-apps/#comment-1752</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip Witte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 05:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://worldofgnome.org/?p=6543#comment-1752</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Honestly, I wish more software was written in D.


D has modern productivity language features comparable to C# and Java, without sacrificing the power and efficiency of native binaries. Granted it hasn&#039;t really been an option until just recently, but It would be great to see more software move to D with proper SDKs and documentation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Honestly, I wish more software was written in D.</p>
<p>D has modern productivity language features comparable to C# and Java, without sacrificing the power and efficiency of native binaries. Granted it hasn&#8217;t really been an option until just recently, but It would be great to see more software move to D with proper SDKs and documentation.</p>
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